Which one to show at fair

Had this posted in RH - moving here. Maybe get better responses in this wool forum...

Jillian is looking for advice on which of two junior bucks to bring to fair (she can only enter one buck and one doe). Also looking for confirmation that this doe is a squirrel -- we haven't seen one before and haven't been able to find a photo of a Jersey squirrel.

Trio - doe in the middle



Doe















Cooro













Husky













Thanks!

The way Shagoutis work is that if there is a shaded anywhere, a shagouti can pop up. It's more common than you think. I had a full litter of them at the beginning of this year from an Opal X REW cross. Mother has no shaded in the pedigree, and I was told it doesn't matter what the dad had cause he's REW. So, I suspect the mother has shaded in there somewhere. It is true that Agouti is dominant, but the shaded gene just blends with the Agouti gene causing shaded chins.

Here are pictures of my squirrel:

Personally, I don't think you have a squirrel. If you want, I can also post pictures of my shagoutis from an early age to what they look like not at 6 months. I do agree about it being hard to find a good picture of a squirrel. I was looking for one too a while back.

Squirrels almost exhibit a tan pattern, meaning that the inner ears, belly, underside of the tail, around the eye, the nape of the neck, and around the nostrils are white. All agoutis have this tan like pattern.

Thanks! Your squirrel is much more evenly colored than Trina (above). She is Jillian's only junior doe, so she's going to go ahead and show her at fair (4H only show). Just trying to decide whether to put agouti or shaded on the tag. <3

We are leaning toward agouti since the rings are so obvious now and the shading less so.


Any suggestions on the two bucks? We think the blue is prettier and has better wool, but he always hugs the table while the black will sit up properly (at least sometimes)!

I would put Agouti. If the judges are strict, they'll tell you.

It's hard to tell the type of any rabbit when they're not posed correctly. The last picture of my squirrel is the way you want them sitting (or close) to be able to judge. It's hard to explain how to pose without actually showing you.

OK apparently I'm dreaming rabbit genetics now -- woke with a weird thought - are wideband and non-extension the same thing... and could that be what's messing with the color on the squirrel?

Found the following in an article on American chins...

"Wideband gene action works like a simple recessive. WW or Ww (where the
dominant gene is a ‘non-wideband’ gene) yields a regular band on an agouti
and allows for an undercolor on a tan-pattern rabbit. “ww” places a wider
band on the agouti and removes any possibility to have any belly undercolor."

"The wideband gene, when present in a double recessive form, causes an
American Chinchilla rabbit to have a double width pearl band, and to have
white undercolor on the belly. The surface color, due to the wider pearl
band showing through he guardhairs a little on the topcoat, has a lighter
gray appearance, and a less wavy appearance is present than on a normally
banded Chin."

"whether the
American Chinchilla rabbit is a wideband (white belly undercolor) or a normal
band (blue belly undercolor), they are still purebred, and are still recognized
as correct color by the ARBA Standard of Perfection...varieties of Chinchilla in Netherland Dwarf, American Fuzzy Lop, French
Lop, English Lop, MiniLop, Jersey Wooly, Rex, and MiniRex breeds all allow
for Blue or white belly undercoat. "

--Dr. Stephen Roush - http://www.rabbitgeek.com/file/amchinwideband.pdf

Could that be what's going on with the color pattern in the doe?

Especially given the opal sire started off with a light but still acceptable slate undercolor that as a senior has faded to the point where he was DQ'ed for a white undercolor?

What I was thinking it could be is a self rabbit in a molt. Is that possible? Juniors molt in weird ways, and the rabbit could have a funky molt going on. It shows not signs of the "tan" pattern, so we know it's not an agouti, shagouti or regular, it just isn't an agouti if those patterns are not there.

I've never heard of a wideband messing with a gene. I want to say orange is non-extension, but don't take my word on that. Post this question on either RH or RA. Or both. One of the genetic gurus could help you better.

Thanks - I have this posted on rabbit habbit but not on RA yet. Haven't gotten much response.

While I don't see clear agouti markings now, and definitely not as a kit, there are definite rings in the wool of pale blue and pearl-white. Every hair -- even on the face and ears is clearly tipped with a gorgeous dark blue color - a middle band of pale pearl white (on the back with at least two pale blue bands though it) and a decent if light slate undercolor.

Those rings are what originally got us thinking chinchilla pattern -- can anything other than agouti and chin (which is agouti) have rings?

Not molting - only 10 weeks.

Wide band have rings. Not enough to be counted as Agouti. To be Agouti you have to have 5, I think. None of the wideband colors are anywhere near your rabbit's coloring. Widebands aren't showable in Woolies yet, and I think they may be classified under AOV when they become accepted. Is there shading? It could be a shaded variety... but I don't know which one. The pictures remind me of a Lilac, which is self. Weird little bunny.

The piece I cited above on chinchillas as well as a couple other sites seem to make a distinction between the non-extension series (e) and the wideband (w) - with the w being an extra modifier (like vienna) not part of the main 5.

I have no idea, I've never seen or heard of that happening.

we were originally thinking shaded as there is a lot of shaded in the dam's pedigree (good chance she is carrying). But even if she were - the sire's genes - C and chd - would both cover shaded.

I'd agree that she's a weird little bunny - and has become something of an obsession - lol.

However, I've had two other people send me photos of similar looking Jersey babies -- both from chin lines.

What about having some breeders look at her? Doesn't matter the breed, but if a breeder who knows their stuff sees the rabbit in person, they may be able to tell what she is.

We usually get decent judges for the youth fair (just a week away!). Unfortunately rarely see other breeders outside the fair/shows (and I've asked the handful we do see through 4H). Jillian is planning to sell her after fair -- likely as a pet if we don't get confirmation of variety before then.

This kind of got sidetracked into the discussion of the doe -- what we really need advice on is which of the two bucks is better -- she can only show one of the pair at youth fair next week. Jersey folks - any advice?

Body type is near identical -- at least to my non-expert eyes. The blue is a little bigger all around (probably just a growth difference, not something I would put stock in for adult size). The wool density is better on the blue. Still young enough neither poses well (despite Jillian's daily work) - the blue wants to freeze with his head on the table, the black sits up, but only for a second before off exploring (yeah opposite personalities lol).

BTW - last year at fair there were only 3 kids with Jerseys - so it isn't like the competition is anywhere near what the shows will be - nonetheless she wants to put forward her best!

It's hard to tell with them not pose properly. But the blue might be better if you can get him to pose properly. And orange in woolies is 2 non-extension genes plus agouti.

Hey there I'm the wooly breeder you talked to on rh about the funny colored rabbit I found out some stuff I posted it on your post on rh go check it out

Hey Fuzzyville - thanks. Thought RH was closed to new posts - - will go check it out!

FYI - closing this string (I think)...

Jillian showed Husky (the blue) as her Jr Buck and Trina (the weird one) as her Jr. Doe. Husky took best of breed (only 4 kids, about a dozen bunnies in JWs, but still pretty awesome). Trina is back to being Terrance -- DQ'ed for wrong sex. Judge didn't know what to call the color either. Couple of inquiries on Terrance from folks wanting a pet -- no solid offers but Jillian will be following up.